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chrism
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 73
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| That's a pretty damning statement! - tell us more! |
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splintered_image
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 41
Location: NSW
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| Brainless 1 wrote: |
Turps as a thinner of oil paint has no binders so it breaks the bond between the pigment and oil...... not a good thing.
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Does this mean that using turps as a thinner, even in small quantities, is going to shorten the life of a painting? This is what I don't understand. Turps is bad, but don't almost all painters use it as a thinner? Or is it only bad when you use a lot of it? |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| splintered_image wrote: | | Brainless 1 wrote: |
Turps as a thinner of oil paint has no binders so it breaks the bond between the pigment and oil...... not a good thing.
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Does this mean that using turps as a thinner, even in small quantities, is going to shorten the life of a painting? This is what I don't understand. Turps is bad, but don't almost all painters use it as a thinner? Or is it only bad when you use a lot of it? |
Splinters,
You should never use just turps to thin or make more fluid your oil paint. However for your undepainting , you can used a turps thinned medium . Doing so still adds medium to bind the pigment , the following layers you put a greater percentage of medium in it and the consquently the oil paint layer becomes "fatter" over the "leaner" layer.
Note: in saying turps , I mean either Gum Turps, Distilled turps or Odourless solvent and not Mineral turps.
Mineral turps should not be mixed with medium and only used to clean brushes......in fact Odourless Solvent should be used instead of mineral turps , it's 1/9th the toxicity. |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| chrism wrote: | | That's a pretty damning statement! - tell us more! |
Chrism, what can I say ?......... I am a rabid, highly opinionated rabbit with a peg leg 
Sunday & Brad73 , I'll prattle on about artist's colours and laying out a palette over time, as I said , it's a little complex, not difficult to understand , but my paws get tired easily and typing does not come naturally for someone like me.......and basically it's a lot of info to scribble explaining why?
OK, I'll start with one oil paint colour ( well not really a colour , but bloody uesful anyway ).
WHITE !!!!!!!
You all need white oil paint don't ya ?, you walk into the art shop and see a handfull of different whites and just buy Titanium white , right ? Or you think it's just white , I'll get a big tube of the cheapest student grade stuff and save my money for some other colours 
There is more to it than that.
Firstly, the very best white paint in the world is made by Blockx ( trust me it is ) . If you ever get any real honest art shop assistants / art teachers with genuine knowledge or other artists who know their stuff.... then they will tell you the same.
Why is it the best , " white is white "I hear you all say , as if in an ancient Greek chorus.
It is the best because ;
1. It is one of the finest ground whites, ground slowly so as not to heat/burn the oil or pigment. This gives it an incredibly smooth buttery feel.
2. It is ground in poppy oil, not linseed....meaning it doesn't yellow over time like other brands ( Old holland is ground in safflower oil , which also doesn't yellow )
3. It has more pigment in it than other brands ( less cheap fillers ) , yep they even shove fillers in white oil paint.
Ok , so that's why it's good stuff, so which of the Blockx whites to use ?
Titanium white
Zinc white
Flake white
Mixed white ( titanium & zinc)
Mixed white ( Flake & zinc )
I recommend that artists use both Titanium and Zinc white. I also use Flake white.
Titanium is a ever so slightly cooler white that is slower drying ( remain slippery when blending ) and the most opaque.
Zinc dries slightly faster and is more transparent.
Zinc white can save you money......for example , if you wanted to paint a large area of sky ,that was to be made up of mainly cerulean blue, but pale. Cerulean Blue is very expensive and if you used Zinc white to make the pale blue, then you would use 1/2 as much Cerulean Blue compared to if you used Titanium white.
Blockx still make Flake white , which is essentially made from lead and highly toxic. However it is a great colour, slightly warmer as a white, but it's real beauty is how it feels. Other whites feel like vasaline compared to it. It is a stiffer paint, tackier and a bit stringy, but beautiful to work with and great for highlights. It has been used for centuries by artists and when you next wander in an art museum and look at those wonderful 18th & 19th century paintings and marvel at those thick highlights with defined brush marks ( often slightly stringy dabs ) then you are looking at Flake white. Oh, Flake white is also a fast drying white.
Be careful if ya wanna play with Flake white... Titanium & Zinc will get you all the results you want.
That being said , a lot of artists don't use white exclusively to lighten colours. Yep there are other colours you can use to make paint lighter without it looking flat and chalky ( that using white sometimes does ).
But that is another story  |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| sunday wrote: | Ok then you've sparked my curiosity, do you have a particular palette of colours that you recommend?
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OK Sunday back to this incredibly complex and difficult question to answer. I don't want to answer it with my usual arrogance and say, "get this , that and the other".
There is no such thing as an universal palette of colours that suits all painters or art stuents.
Colours vary depending on which brand of oil paint you buy ie Naples yellow, varies dramatically from Blockx/Old holland /AS/W&N etc . Also Naples yellow comes in varieties such as "Deep" & "reddish".( ps the best one is Old Holland Naples Yellow Extra code A313 ). You cannot get the same results using Blockx Naples Yellow as you can with Old Holland , they are 2 very different colours.
Too few colours on you palette and you limit yourself . Don't believe that you can mix every colour by using the primary colours + Black & white. You cant even come close if you added the seconday colours ( orange, violet & green ). Anyway you cant buy the spot on primary colours as oil paint.
So many poor students are tortured by art teachers with closed minds and restrictive palettes. They are told " all you need is these few colours and mixing" Bullshit !, I say!
Also conversely , I have seen so many art students and professional artists with a huge array of tubes of paint, many useless, some unecessary and of varying quality. It is as if they walked into the art shop and picked randomly at all the pretty colours ( in between scratching their ass or head ).
Easy to do since most art shops carry more than one brand and Old Holland make 162 different colours as oil paint.
All that being said what would make a reasonably good, basic & all round pallete for someone wanting to paint in a realistic manner ? . Abstract, Pop , etc etc artists can use this and everything thing else you can get you hands on.
PS always use the real pigmants and don't use a "hue" variation ie "Cerulean blue hue" paint is not Cerulean blue, but a cheap substitute pigmant to make the tube of paint cheaper to buy.
Blockx Titanium White
Blockx Zinc White
Cadmium Lemon Yellow ( cool )
Cadmium Yellow Deep ( warm )
Cadmium Red ( warm )
Alizarin Crimson ( cool )
Ultramarine Blue ( warm )
Cerulean Blue ( cool )
Blockx Vine Black ( or lamp Black )
The above list gives you a warm and cool of each of the primary colours and if you mixed each of the yellows, or reds, or blues together 50/50 then you get a very close to it's primary colour ( don't do it, just letting you know ).
SECONDARY COLOURS
Cadmium orange
Cobalt Violet
Cobalt Violet deep
Greens ( you can mix greens quite well, that being said the range of greens depends on what you paint, ( ie landscapes or not ).
EARTH COLOURS
Yellow Ochre
Burnt Sienna
Raw Umber
Burnt Umber
That is the basic set of colours and now it gets difficult because there are quite of few incredibly useful colours to add to that list. Most art teachers will give you that above list of colours ( or a variation of it ), but not go beyond it or tell you why each of those colours is important , let alone what it's properties are and how to use them ( other than try mixing them and see what happens )
Each extra colour needs it's own post *lays down tired* |
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Bob Abrahams
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Perth
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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I agree, Old Holland is the best quality oil paint. It is expensive to buy, but the very strong pigment goes a long way, so I doubt that it really costs more in the long run.
I aim for a minimum number of colours.
IMO the best primary mixing paints are
Quinacridone Magenta PR 122
Scheveningen Blue Deep (phthalo) PB 15.0
Indian Yellow Lake Extra (brown shade) PY 153
These are transparent pigments and theoretically will mix any colour you might need. I steer away from earth colours if possible and try to mix from these three
I find the best mediums are Langley
Underpainting Medium and Painting Medium
I recently had to change to acrylic because of alergy, probably caused by oil paint and mediums (after 25 years of use??) Now I am use Golden acrylics and the same pigments. PR 122, PB 15.0 and Yellow Hansa Medium (as PY153 is not available)
I do not use water for acrylics except for washing brushes. I use Golden Polmer medium and varnish
Cheers
Bob |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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Hi BOB,
Am I to believe that you only use those 3 colours ?
Oh well if it works for you, then it's ok........... but .......... geez it's hard for this rabbit ( who is notoriously argumentative ) to bite his lip , but believe me when I say , I am trying very hard to be a good rabbit and not get into fights 
*bites tongue*
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Bob Abrahams
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Perth
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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Hi Brainless (God, I do not like using that name. Do you have a better one?  Please don't bite your tongue over my post. 
I should say that in my lansdcape and still life paintings I see tone as more important than colour and that influences my thinking about colour
In the previous post I said
"IMO the best primary mixing paints are" PR122, PB 15.4 YS and PY153"
These three colour are quite close to THE primary colours and while they may not mix every possible colour, they should provide enough for most applications. If not already done so, I suggest we experiment with the above pigments. Its amazing what they produce
Of course if we can get the exact colour you need out of a tube and do not like the challenge of mixing, go for it, it saves thinking about colour theory and mixing time .
I suggest that it is good practice to use less colours on your palette rather than more. Using 3 or 4 colours to mix all of the others tends to unify the painting and keep colours clean and crisp. Less colours on the palette is much easier to manage, specially for beginners. Have a look at the paintings I sent with recent posts
I also said that I am "trying" to try to eliminate earth colours and that I aim to hold back white where ever possible until the painting is nearly finished. I never use black out of a tube, because I can mix it from the primaries. If you really need a black-black then go for it out of a tube
IMO there are are no laws or absolutes in painting, so do what pleases. If it works, thats great!!!! No need to be arrogant or argumentive, I suggest we all keep an open mind and learn from one another while on the creative journey
I have done a little reseach on the use of minimal palettes and will post URL for those interested soon.
Cheers
Bob |
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Bob Abrahams
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Perth
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Julie
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 104
Location: Woodford
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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I don't use black either, I mix alizarin crimson, ultramarine blue and raw umber. I just like the complexity of the dark rather than the black hole of pure black.
Don't really follow any rules, it's just an experiment that I like. 
Rabbit, how do you stop dust in the air drying onto your glazed surfaces. I think that mine are too 'fat' and it just takes forever to dry. I'm oil glazing over acrylics, is that the problem? Is there a way to get the dust and tiny fibres off once it is dry? 
Please help
Julie |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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Hi Bob,
Brainless here, don't worry I enjoy being called that.
Quote Bob '"IMO the best primary mixing paints are" PR122, PB 15.4 YS and PY153"
These three colour are quite close to THE primary colours and while they may not mix every possible colour, they should provide enough for most applications. '
These colours are not that close to primary colours , but closer to photo printing colours ( Magenta , Cyan & yellow ) and yes using them you can get a large range of colours.
However painting is different to printing and I believe a medium sized pallete of colours best suits most artists. I say most and not all, for instance the most obsessive limited colour artist that I know is Chuck Close who for many years painted with only black . They were 9 x 7 ft photorealist portraits ( just the head ) and every pore was visible. After working for years in Black & white he did a series of colour paintings where he used the exact colour oil paints as you will find in colour printing. The crazy bastard painted each colour seperately ie all the yellow , all the cyan and all the magenta and it wasn't until the last colour was applied that you could see the full colour painting. They took about a year each to paint.
Bob you talk of using 3-4 colours unifying the painting and yes that happens most times when most of the colours are intermixed in all parts of a painting.
The problem I have is that I don't like the phthalo colours and other intense artificial colours like Dioxizine Violet , Viridian etc. the reason is they dont intermix well with traditional pigments. Sure those 3 colours you use might work together , but extra colours introduced could fight with them.
My list of colours are traditional pigments that intermix well and don't tend to become muddy or overpower each other. They are also very good as the basis for painting the real world ( I have no problems if you do paintings of , say , a carnival and hence need lurid artificial colours ) , but most things can be painted with that range. That and the 6-8 other colours I haven't mentioned yet.
Julie ,
I barely use any black either, but when I need a black I use Blockx Vine Black, because it is warm , not like Ivory Black which is harsh and cold.
Instead of black I generally use Blockx Cassel Earth, it's a great substitute for black and is near black in tone ( slightly lighter ) , but is essentially an earth colour and not as overpowering to other colours when mixed. It looks like a natural near black, that has a beautiful complexity to it.
It's close to a chromatic black, but darker. A chromatic grey is when two opposite colours are mixed to produce a grey that cancels out either colour. ie grey made from mixing yellow& Violet, or red & green or blue and orange.
PS Bob , don't worry about the rabbit , he loves arguing ( and occasionally biting people ) , but it is never with any malice, just can't help being naughty
Haven't bitten anyone yet |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| Julie wrote: | Rabbit, how do you stop dust in the air drying onto your glazed surfaces. I think that mine are too 'fat' and it just takes forever to dry. I'm oil glazing over acrylics, is that the problem? Is there a way to get the dust and tiny fibres off once it is dry?
Please help
Julie |
julie,
Oil glazing over acylics is not a problem as long as you don't go back and use acrylics over the oil glazes.
Sounds like your glazes are too "fat" which is a common problem. It is so easy to make your glazes too oily because the very nature of glazing is the use of little pigment and a lot of medium.
Use less full strength medium and a little turps . Yep it makes your final layers leaner , but being a glaze it's mainly medium and hence "very fat".
If you want to get it to dry faster, then in your jar of pre-mixed clear glazing medium , you add a few drops of Liquin.
If you don't like using a alkyd resin with your oil paints and want to stay "trad" , then mix 5% of Venetian turpentine into your jar of pre-mixed clear glazing medium . Langridge make a good one that is thicker than maple syrup and comes in little 100ml bottles ( should last you years ).
This should take a couple of days to dry, just like normal oil paint.
Julie , about the fluff getting on you paintings ..... darling, you should see the trouble I have , as a rabbit I am essentailly a fur ball
Dust is always a problem, after glazing , leave the painting face up for 1/2 - 1 hour for the turps in it to evaporate , then when the glaze is not going to run hang it on a wall to dry, preferably in a place that isn't dusty.
After it has dried , dust & fibres are pretty much stuck there, so getting them off without damaging your painting is difficult.... sometimes the tip of a razor blade, carefully scratching them off is possible.
PS here is the best tip you are ever going to get !!!
Venetian Turpentine has another useful purpose. it smells so bloody good and "arty" that collectors visiting your studio will drop their petticoats to the floor , open their cheque book and buy one of your paintings. Yep, I must confess to having at times smeared a little Venetian turpentine on a cloth and left it in the studio , letting the aroma waft about prior to an important client visiting.
Try it and watch your sales rise. |
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BlueMonk
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Hobart
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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Hi Brainless ... Great stuff ... Brings back memories. Gave up colours about seventeen years ago. Not that I didn't like it, but the body of works I was doing at that time almost drove me insane. I took very seriously the learning all one could about paint, mediums, surface prep, colour etc. Not only was this series of work large in scale, but colour was also the main subject. All those symbols, all that detail, on and on .... oh did I mention this almost drove me nuckin futs.
Worst of all in Canada where I first exhibited them, they become very popular with collectors and commissions. I know , I know, whoa is me.
Even though I did enjoy the end results of this self - induced torture it had to end.
Before I chewed off a leg, I decided to not only change my style but also just use two colours (very risky career move at that time).
Black and white.
Not only did this give a me fantastic release, soon also I learnt how difficult this was going to be. I was very passionate and relished this new adventure. The two colours gave me more variations in tonal range I could ever imagine. The challenge was on ... then coming across the poems by Baudalaire - "Flowers of Evil" .... bingo I was free to express to my little hearts content.
Been painting like this ever since.
Am slowly introducing colour again but only if subject needs it. Depends on the poem, the music and beverage.
I used to give my students an exercise where they could only use four colours , which included white. This forced them to experiment and let go the strains we put upon ourselves due to the huge range of colours now available out there.
Anyway, good to see someone taking the art of paint seriously.
Keep up the good work.
Regards Shane.
Oh, good thing you didn't visit our area over the week end .... they where spraying for MIXAMATOSIS!!! |
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Bob Abrahams
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Perth
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| Brainless 1 wrote: | Hi Bob,
The problem I have is that I don't like the phthalo colours and other intense artificial colours like Dioxizine Violet , Viridian etc. the reason is they dont intermix well with traditional pigments. Sure those 3 colours you use might work together , but extra colours introduced could fight with them.
Hi Brainless
I agree with you in respect to Dioxine and Viridian they are dirty colours, but Phthalo is close to pure colour and can be tamed with Quinadridone Magenta.
My list of colours are traditional pigments that intermix well and don't tend to become muddy or overpower each other. They are also very good as the basis for painting the real world ( I have no problems if you do paintings of , say , a carnival and hence need lurid artificial colours ) , but most things can be painted with that range. That and the 6-8 other colours I haven't mentioned yet.
I do not have a problem with your selection of traditional colours, have used most of them over the years. However I usually paint plein air hence the need to reduce the weight of my equipment that I have to carry. Most of my plein air painting are completed in lesss than 2 hrs so it is a creative challenge to express and compress what I see using tone and temperature values and just a few colours I find that using the pigments I mentioned are exciting.
Haven't bitten anyone yet |
I think your bark is worse than your bite |
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Brainless 1
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1417
Location: Serial Killer City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Re - Everthing you wanted to know about Oil Painting . |
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| Bob Abrahams wrote: |
I think your bark is worse than your bite |
Bob , let me assure you that I have a rather nasty bite, but I promised Brad ( admin ) that I would be a good bunny and play nice.
Quote Bob "I agree with you in respect to Dioxine and Viridian they are dirty colours, but Phthalo is close to pure colour and can be tamed with Quinadridone Magenta. "
All I was saying is that Phthalo Blue/Green might be tamed in your limited palette , but if it is used with a larger palette of colours , it doesn't intermix well with some of the traditional colours and can skewer or overpower other colours making them "yucky" ( that's a technical art term ) or acidic. |
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