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stottjames
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Location: Melbourne
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 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: What makes a good canvas and why. |
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I only buy the cheapies, already framed.
Could someone please place in order, say everyday to serious and why they are better to work with please.
I see rabbit skins canvas, I see some on frames $100 and others the same size $20....wot is the differences please?
Also what would the fabrics be made of?
Oh appy days. |
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sunday
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 3995
Location: Victoria
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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Hi stottjames,
The following information regarding canvasses was provided by Brainless in the thread "everything you want to know about oil painting". There's a lot of useful information in that thread 
| Quote: | OK, everything you wanted to know about !!!! Canvas !!!!
If you are just experimenting , mucking about or doing a basic lesson , then those pre-stretched , pre-primed plastic sealed canvases you see in art shops are ok. Canvas boards are rubbish !!! and should never be used.
Those pre-stretched , pre-primed , plastic sealed canvases you see in art shops are also nearly as good as rubbish but can be used as long as it is for play.
COTTON DUCK CANVAS ( whitish beige colour )
Is rubbish that wont last and has an awful texture/weave to paint on.
As far as I know there are 3 types of cotton duck canvas;
1. cotton duck, ( trad/ old cotton duck ) you can see dark spots occasionally in it, which are remnants of seeds etc . It doesn't last long , rumoured to start deteriorating within 50 years and totally unstable within a 100 years.
2. cotton duck mixed with a polyester fibre , unfortunately the cotton runs one way and the polyester runs the other. Over time the cotton will deteriote faster than the polyester and basically start to fall apart. Also different threads reacting differently to moisture and heat will affect the paint surface over time
3. a totally polyester/plastic canvas..... I am not convinced it will last.
What you should use if you can afford it or are a serious artist that exhibits and sells your work.
BELGIAN LINEN !!!!
It comes raw, pre-primed and a large range of weaves.
Pre-primed Belgian linen is usually extremely good , so there is no need to buy it raw or loomstate and then seal it ( rabbit skin glue ) before priming it.
Pre-primed ; it comes in both oil primed and acrylic primed ( called universal prime ) . Most are oil primed and If you are using oils , then go with the oil primed.
Most pre primed Belgian linen is expensive , but don't get fooled and use that ultra cheap Russian Linen , it's crap.... thin , cracks and badly made.
Also don't use linen / cotton duck mixed canvas ( the idea is just stupid !)
Apart from that , almost all linens are good and it depends on your preference of weave, texture and wieght , which ones you use.
The weave in cotton duck is crap to paint on. Belgian Linen has a beautiful ( and slightly irregular ) weave and the oil primer gives it a perfect surface to work on. That and it's tried and tested to last 400-500 years ( unless you do something really stupid ).
Most really good art shops will stretch Belgian linen canvases for you from their stock rolls. Some even have prepared canvases in racks ( do not mistake these for those cotton duck canvases ).
Seniors , Parkers , St Luke, Art Stretchers etc will stretch belgian linen canvases for you.
Get in the habit of working on Linen, there will be no going back to cotton duck. Consistancy of art materials creates good habits and learning , so use linen and get use to it .... rather than saying to yourself , when I get famous or have a show I'll use it. |
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minxdragon
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 2596
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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Personally I am curious as to why stretched canvas is everywhere these days. When I was a student (I only had access to a few supply shops like Riot and the Paper Place) I couldn't find it for love nor money at those places. and when I did well- love and money were not enough to afford them! an A4 sized stretched canvas was around $20 at those places. Now you can pick up the junky ones anywhere for pennies. lots of sizes too.
Good for practice, good for ebay and if you muff it you don't care too much! Canvas boards are a complete waste of money and time.
I am sorry Brainless, I am on a pension so I really cant get linen yet! I do want to but if I don't have the money then I don't have it! (guilt guilt guilt) bug these stores about selling properly over the web too. I cant get out much or far.
_________________
'A vision's just a vision if it's only in your head, if noone gets to see it it's as good as dead- it has to come to life!'
Website: http://www.jennierosenbaum.com
Blog: http://jenniespalette.com |
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Brad Buchel
Site Admin
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 1386
Location: Sydney
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AvG
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1912
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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| minxdragon wrote: | | Personally I am curious as to why stretched canvas is everywhere these days...... |
Hi Minx
I was talking to a professional canvas stretcher the other day about this and ( apparently the influx of all the cheap canvases has something to do with us becoming a dumping ground for poor quality chinese product. The businesses exporting to us, get paid substantial amounts to export - I think it is a governemnt subsidy. The US has really tightened up and some canvas suppliers there even launched court proceedings to stop the influx, which may explain why so many are heading our way.
DISCLAIMER: This is second hand information and I can't remember the specific details
Of course the other factor is that people buy them.......
| Quote: | | I am sorry Brainless, I am on a pension so I really cant get linen yet! I do want to but if I don't have the money then I don't have it! (guilt guilt guilt) |
I paint on linen and really love it and am lucky that these days I can, but all through my student years I painted on canvas. No way could I afford linen when I was studying - affording the canvas was hard enough!
Plenty of professional artists continue to paint on canvas because they enjoy the particular surface, just like some artists prefer acrylic to oil. (for me the very thought of painting with acrylic on canvas is like running fingernails down a blackboard......but, hey, that's just me)
I think you're not alone Minx in needing some cheaper alternatives, but you should always use the best material that your budget can stand. This goes for brushes, supports and paints (I am sure Brainless would agree with me here).
The difference between poor quality and good quality can have a HUGE impact on your work - e.g. it is a lot EASIER to do a good painting on professinal quality linen/canvas than on the cheap canvas in the $2 shops. It is also easier to control your brush, invariably looks better AND your paint goes a lot further so you can use and therefore buy less paint.
One of the budget concious solutions things you might like to try is taping linen or canvas onto a stiff board - you wouldn't be only one.... | brainless wrote: | | Jeffrey Smart ( as far as I know ) paints on unstretched linen against a hard board, then has it stretched after the painting is finished. |
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You can use the board on the floor, table, easel etc whatever suits you.
You won't have to worry about the cost of stretching unless it turns out just how you want (places like Fitzroy Stretches and Art Strechers will stretch pre painted canvas onto stretcher bars). Aside from the cost it can also help with storage as unstreched canvases take up less space.
Art Stretchers sell linen (and canvas) offcuts that can be in quite decent sizes - I have bought pieces big enough for paintings 36" x 42"
Even if they don't sell on the intranet most art shops will be happy to send price lists and will sell over the phone. I listed some phone numbers in another post somewhere and have copied them here.
| avangils wrote: |
Artshop
1 Maples Lane
Prahran VIC 3181
9510 4042
St. Kilda Art Supplies
12 Belford St.
St. Kilda VIC 3182
9525 3054
St. Luke Artist Colourmen
225 Gertrude St.
Fitzroy VIC 3065
9486 9992
Senior Art Supplies
1357 Malvern Rd.
Malvern VIC 3144
9804 3404
Senior Art Supplies
21 Degrave Street
Melbourne VIC 3000
9639 6662
Fitzroy Stretches
63 Weston St Brunswick 3056
9380 9553
Neil's (Neil Wallace Printmaking Supplies)
44 -46 Greeves St Fitzroy 3065
9419 5949
Art Stretchers
76 Victoria St Carlton 3053
9663 8624
Melbourne Artists Supplies
34 Little Latrobe Street
Melbourne VIC 3000
9639 6622
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DISCLAIMER #2 this is all my own opinion Minx. If you are happiest with the cheap canvases for now, go for it.
Cheers
Amanda |
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minxdragon
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 2596
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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Thanks for all this info  and for the views on the sudden influx of canvasses - it is really wierd...
I buy good quality cheap canvas.. thats a bit of an oxymoron isn't it! I buy the best canvas I can afford. The professional quality canvas mostly (unless I am experimenting) I refinish it if I don't like the tooth. but mostly I actually like the texture, I paint in a more contemporary expressionist style and a high texture adds more grip to the thicker works and an interesting feature to be used for the thinner glazed works.
I have tried stretched on board but I don't like the feeling.. too stiff its probably great for hyperrealism and really smooth work such as Jeffrey Smart's but I like the feeling of stretched over a frame, something about the give. plus they are lighter. I cannot lift anything over 2 kilos (a sad admission for an ex bodybuilder) and I don't have the strength to stretch onto a board - especially of the size i use!
Basically, I assume materials are kind of like my old sewing machine. it was all I had for a long time and I worked really hard with it. my sewing was good because I made it good even though it was a fight. eventually, I was given a brand new sewing machine and my work was easier, it took less of a fight and I was freer to concentrate on my sewing itself rather than fighting with the machine.
- My technique is not hurting in any way using the materials I am using, I just have to work a little harder, when I can afford better materials I will have to work less hard to get the same results. Currently I am doing a lot of experimenting so using reasonably inexpensive materials is good. That way if I bollocks things up I don't feel bad about wasting money.
I am looking forward to the time when I can get better materials I think it will be the difference between cooking with basic ingredients and cooking with the best ingedients.
and I am looking forward to the time when I can afford a janome memorycraft too!
_________________
'A vision's just a vision if it's only in your head, if noone gets to see it it's as good as dead- it has to come to life!'
Website: http://www.jennierosenbaum.com
Blog: http://jenniespalette.com |
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Simon
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1856
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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| Apart from being lightweight, what is actually wrong with the cheap canvasses? I am serious, I really want to know. Will the paint fall off it one day? Will the material fall to pieces? Will it only last 100 years? |
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Kayleen Stewart
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1793
Location: Yarra Valley
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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| draw1ngs wrote: | | Apart from being lightweight, what is actually wrong with the cheap canvasses? I am serious, I really want to know. Will the paint fall off it one day? Will the material fall to pieces? Will it only last 100 years? |
Drawings
I have heard so many conflicting opinions on this I wonder myself.
One thing I do believe is that some cheaper canvases are lighter in weight and the primer is often inadequate. Therefore, it always pays to prime well as the primer stops the paints eating away at the material.
Hope that helps.
P.S Many professionals use them but always prime them properly.
Kayleen  |
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AD
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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Hi there,
I have been purchasing cotton canvas pre stretched 12ounce, tripple primed etc from an art store, its not cheap and feels amazing (i can see the difference between this and the mega cheap pre stretched from O/S) great wood / supports etc. My work sells to people who love it and not the canvas, though I really do think (and have questioned my supplier about this) my cotton canvas will also last a long time. If in the exhibiting arena this is not good enough I was unaware. |
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AD
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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| I think a lot of cheap shops stock prestretched cheap canvases (this is re comment about pre stretched canvases being everywhere) because there are so many people having "a go" these days compared to even 5 years ago - I have a little neice who is 10 who buys these and paints on them we love it. So demand has been there for a number of years for accessible and affordable canvases, I think its a good thing because it just means more and more people are also interesred in art (in general). Though I agree if you want to sell your work for a decent amount I think the purchaser would appreciate a hard wearing decent quality canvas, doesnt need to be the belgium. |
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AvG
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1912
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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HI AD Welcome aboard.
Plenty of people paint on cotton and this is fine.
ScottJames, In regard to what is so bad about the cheapies canvases that can be picked up in reject shop on ebay etc mainly it is the quality of the wooden frames - warping, splitting etc. also the mix of cotton and synthetic fabric within the weave that deteriorates over different time periods. They are not made to archival standards so will, over a period of time, deteriorate - (any conservators here who can help give us some more specific information?).
If you go into commercial galleries you would not be able to find a painting done on one of these. But to play and experiment they can be a great affordable option.
Happy painting
Amanda |
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AvG
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1912
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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Hah  looks like we were posting at the same time - I agree about them being a great resource for people wanting to 'have a go'. It would have been great to be able to paint on canvas as a 10 year old.
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Simon
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1856
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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| Some good points. Raises the fear of cutting loose on a whole lot of cheap canvasses, wanting to preserve that one that cannot be repeated. Framing can overcome the warping / splitting issue, and perhaps good priming could overcome the deterioration problem? Solution might be to just afford quality, and give your masterpieces on cheap canvas to family and friends. |
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Bev
Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Sth Penrith
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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I have bought many canvasses fronm the dollar shops and "why not says I " ??? However I have primed many and most were great but the lalst one ...............the canvas ???? ------ cotton peeled away from the frame within days. So what if ........................
Bev  |
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jspinella2000
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 4
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: Re - What makes a good canvas and why. |
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I use canvas boards a lot. I find these really easy to paint on. Is there anything wrong with using these boards? I generally choose well known brands and use Gesso to prime them before I paint with oils.
Kind regards
Joseph Spinella
http://www.josephspinellaart.com/tram-art.htm |
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